We are all former students at Lakenheath High School and other public schools in East Anglia. We were in school in the 70s and 80s and drank deeply from the well of British culture of those decades - the pints, the telly, and of course the footie!
Iowa has winnowed down the race to perhaps three viable Democratic candidates and five viable Republican candidates. They'll all be on stage tonight starting at 7pm as part of the ABC/Facebook debates. Here's hoping they won't be posting candid photos of their drunken college parties!
posted by gatorbob @ 5:56 PM
We are all former students at Lakenheath High School and other public schools in East Anglia. We were in school in the 70s and 80s and drank deeply from the well of British culture of those decades - the pints, the telly, and of course the footie!
94 Comments:
I'm more than a bit cynical about these media events, but even I have to admit that Charlie Gibson - the ABC host for tonight - is talking a good game about the event. At least he admits that we're "debated out" and claims that he's going to try to shut up and let the candidates talk, even talk to each other.
I'm skeptical but maybe it'll fun.
Here we go....!
I can't tell you how sick and tired I am of hearing the word "change." Let's be honest - none of these turkeys represents change. Their policy positions are so close you could barely floss between them. Yes, Romney's a Mormon, Clinton's female and Obama's Black but have we really got that cynical that a change of gender, race or religious background is "change." I fear we have.
I'm pissed that Kucinich hasn't been allowed into this debate. The cameramen will miss the cutaway shots to his wife too.
Michael J. Fox, sorry, George Stephanopolous is pointing out that Romney won the Wyoming caucus today, which means that forty two Mormon fundamentalist turned out to caucus for him. Woo hoo.
First up, the Republicans - Romney, Giuliani, Huckabee, McCain, Thompson and Paul.
First question out of the hat, "will they run on the Bush foreign policy?"
Good stuff.
Huckabee's trying to backpedal on the anti-Bush statements that he made a few weeks back about the Bush admin's "bunker mentality." He's bashing Rumsfeld, but he's an easy target at this point.
Next up is Thompson, who hints that the Huckster is less than honest. Fred's backing Bush policy 100% here. Pushing the Surge, and so on.
Giuliani next...he thinks that Bush got "the big decision right." He also admits mistakes but thinks putting military on the front foot has been right. He calls for a larger military build-up. McCain in cutaway is shown frowning.
Now Gibson is asking whether the candidates believe in the Bush doctrine, specifically "preemptive strikes." Another good question.
McCain: Agrees with the doctrine. Wants to give Bush credit.
These guys really are hell-bent on driving the GOP bus off a bridge.
Ron Paul disagrees with the Bush doctrine, but mainly from an isolationist perspective, not an anti-imperialist one.
Give credit where credit is due. Ron Paul at least gets the subject of blowback right. Gibson inexplicably gives Romney a chance to bash him.
Interesting, six months ago I doubt whether Romney knew what the word madrassa meant, but now he's throwing it around obviously to draw attention to Obama's early education.
Thompson's boring us now with a revisionist history lesson, conveniently skirting over the U.S. role in building the Mujahideen, Taliban and Al Qaeda.
Now Giuliani is having a go at Ron Paul thinking he's wrong-headed to think that Islamic attacks have to do with foreign policy. This is a fascinating discussion. I'd love to hear what the Democratic candidates have to say on the issue.
Ron Paul responding now...
Great point by Paul using the kind of analogy that I often use, asking what Americans would feel if China occupied the U.S.
Thompson cuts in with "Who did we invade before 9/11?" Jesus, did he really say that! Unbelievable. I've got a list of about five pages single-spaced of U.S. invasions in the 20th century. Is he friggin' kidding!
It's clear from this valuable discussion that the mainstream Republican view now is that attacks on the U.S. - and presumably the Iraqi insurgency - have absolutely nothing to do with U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East and merely represent a struggle within Islam. Very interesting.
Romney and Huckabee are now having a hot discussion on who said what and supported the Surge first. Hot stuff!
Ron Paul now wondering why we support dictators in the Middle East - wow!
Gibson is moving on, using a video clip of Bush to ask the question "what are the principles that you stand on?"
Gibson tosses to McCain and Romney. This should be a lay-up for McCain, as everyone knows that Romney is a flip flopper.
McCain is probably winning some points here trumpeting the Surge. New Hampshirites should eat that stuff up.
Romney is playing the family card, avoiding the obvious elephant in the room - how did he go from a pro-choice, pro gay rights, gun control advocate to the corporate conservative he is today?
Giuliani now...playing the Reagan card. He gets credit for not having changed his positions. He lists his principles:
1. Keeping the country on offense.
2. Reduce illegal immigration.
3. Reduce taxes
Gibson's doing a great job. He actually used the F word to describe Romney. Ouch. He also lists Giuliani's prevarications, Huckabee's taxing and spending and Paul's change from Libertarian to Republican Parties. Great stuff.
Huckabee now using the religion card through the Declaration.
Gibson nails Huck on his statement that we can change our policy positions as the world changes.
Thompson is looking particularly craggy tonight, as if he's already on Mount Rushmore. Those make-up artists on Law and Order are bloody geniuses!
Thompson appears to be saying that his core principle is state's rights based on the 10th amendment.
On to health care. All the candidates are united around the proposition that privatized health is the best system. Even after a useful short piece showing that individual plans are more expensive and less accountable, they're running into a ditch.
McCain doesn't think Americans want a Canadian system. Really? I do! Who doesn't? The AMA and the insurance companies.
Ron Paul goes back to Iraq but even he doesn't mention that we already have a nationalized health care system that serves both Congress and the military. I'd love to hear Gibson ask if any of them would privatize the military's health care system.
Thompson's response is "harumph." He's ridiculing Paul but not answering his question.
He and the others on the panel claim that the U.S. has the best health care system in the world. Bollocks! The research just doesn't back that up. It's the best system if you're a millionaire but it's crap if you're not.
Another great question I'd love to hear Gibson ask:
"How many of you have a public health care plan? And how many would give it up in favor of a privatized system?"
Romney's backed into a corner in which he basically is forced to admit that his health care plan is inches away from "Hillarycare," in other words, the government mandating that individuals pay for their coverage.
As the ads have been on, I've really been enjoying the Facebook element of this debate. Some of the candidates frozen out are blogging, including Kucinich, bless him. Also you can see what your "friends" are thinking. Cool stuff.
On to immigration now...
McCain gets the first bite. He admits that he still backs the Bush plan of a path to citizenship. He'll get beaten up for that.
Romney - secure the border, id cards.
Giuliani - build a fence, deportation.
Romney is really getting beaten up tonight. He's hanging by a thread.
McCain gets off a couple of zingers at Romney and Mitt merely repeats the same line about personal attacks. How is it a personal attack to point out that Romney has been using his massive fortune to run attack ads against his opponents?
Ouch, Giuliani gets off a good zinger on Romney. He's really taking some heavy blows here. Meanwhile, Huckabee hasn't been in this one at all. He just looks like a frightened deer.
Giuliani seems to think that his plan isn't amnesty because immigrants have to jump through hoops. Thompson does a nice job poking holes in that. Of course that merely means that he favors deportation of 12 million people. I wish Gibson would ask him exactly how to do that.
Huckabee now claiming that immigration is a matter of national security. Shameful stuff from the GOP here.
Can someone point out to these idiots that the 9/11 hijackers had perfectly legal student visa status!
Ron Paul pointing out that ID cards represent, uh, big government. Hello!
The ABC hacks are now teeing up the issue of Barack Obama for the GOP.
Romney thinks Obama wants nationalized health care. (I wish!)
Thompson on Obama: "Obama has adopted the position of every liberal lobby." (I wish!)
Giuliani hits Obama with the same line that Clinton has used - lack of inexperience, particularly executive experience.
Well, Rudy, Al Qaeda never attacked NYC on Obama's watch, so I guess you're right.
Huckabee disagrees with Obama on gay marriage. Oh really?
Ron Paul's getting all William Jennings Bryan on us, nearly going for the gold standard.
Ron Paul on gas prices: linking Middle Eastern instability and gas prices. Good stuff on saber rattling against Iran.
Thompson is asked if he's concerned about the profits of oil companies. "No." It doesn't affect him. Fat arse.
Romney stumping for tort reform. Oy vey.
Great debate, there. Just enough to get a taste of their insanity and not so much that it made my head explode.
Gibson's going for a dorky handshake between candidates of both parties.
I was waiting to see if anyone would give Hillary a kiss but they didn't. Shame that.
Now the Democrats...
Gibson's still in fine form, with a great question to Obama on whether he'd still invade Afghanistan to go after Al Qaeda.
Oh dear, he would. So much for change, eh?
Gibson calls him for supporting essentially the Bush doctrine. Obama claims it's not because Bush invaded the wrong country but he's evading the point. The point is whether preemptive war is right.
Oh dear, Edwards is in favor of invasion too. Where are you Dennis?
At least Richardson talks about diplomacy. But now he's attacking Musharaff.
Hillary speaks to the Clinton administration in the 90s. I think that that's a risky stance for her. She looks really tired. Sleepless nights?
Cutaway shot to Chelsea, who looks really concerned for her mom.
Clinton talks about the difficulty the U.S. to "control the situation" in Afghanistan. Why should we be doing that?
Richardson again reasonably good here on how U.S. support for the Shah of Iran has reaped some problems for the country.
Gibson goes on to ask about a nuclear attack on NYC, ratcheting up the fear factor.
"What will we wish we had done and what will we do the day after."
How about unilateral disarmament?
Uh, apparently the Dems don't agree. Edwards gets all hawkish about "going after" the terrorists. Yuck. Time to go home to Carolina, John. You're done.
Obama just talked for two minutes but I don't remember any of it. Gibson does a nice job reframing the issue by stating that the threat doesn't come from a state so how to retaliate.
Clinton tries to answer but she's got nothing here. Port security, blah blah blah. This is all supply side stuff. Why not look at why people engage in terrorism?
Yikes, now Hillary's threatening any state that harbors terrorists. Are these people Bush in disguise?
These Democrats are scaring the crap out of me on foreign policy!
Again, Richardson's carving out the slightly liberal positions here. He's coming off well compared to these other hawks.
Okay, domestic issues now. Whew, that discussion of foreign policy was frightening. What a bunch of Cold Warriors!
Gibson's now teeing Hillary up for an attack of Obama. What questions about Obama need to be answered?
Hillary claims that she's for change. Yuck. Now she's attacking him on health care.
Obama defends himself. He's attacking both Clinton and Edwards on the issue of mandates. Not a bad response there. I have to admit that I went without health care for a couple of years in my twenties, so he's speaking to me here.
Some banter here on health care. Good stuff, but Obama's coming off better. He explains himself well here that kids don't have a choice so he'd mandate that parents buy healthcare for them. Hillary banging the flip flop drum but hasn't she moved pretty far from her position at the beginning of the Clinton administration?
Edwards now on health care. He's spending a lot of time talking about change, saying that he and Barack are about change (I assume that means that Clinton is status quo). This seems calculated. He should be better than this. It's all about trying to knock Clinton out of the competition. He's not saying anything about health care here. Terrible answer. Come on, John.
Clinton takes the bait here. She knows she's the target. Good response from her. Feisty. Change, change, change, change, change....
Change, change, change, change, lovely change, lovely change....
Richardson gets the first laugh line of the night. "I've been in friendlier hostage negotiations than tonight." He knows he's toast in this race, so he's being the facilitator, hoping that that'll get him a vice presidential nod.
Gibson now asks the panel if they want to take back their opposition to The Surge:
Hillary - no, bring the troops home.
Richardson - no, the policy's a massive failure.
Obama - no, the bar of success is so slow that we've lost perspective.
Edwards - No, and he thinks that it's the responsibility of the Prez to make policy.
Edwards is the clearest on the panel in terms of withdrawal. 40-50K out in six months and then the rest out within nine months. No permanent bases.
Richardson disagrees - he would get them out in a year.
During the ad break, I took a look at the blogging on the Daily Kos site. They've noticed and now the ABC hack is noting that the four candidates have peeled off into two tickets - Obama/Edwards and Clinton/Richardson. Which would you vote for?
A funny moment there with Hillary actually looking human for a change and Barack saying, "You're likable enough, Hillary," without looking at her, eyes down on his paper. Good answer here from Hills on competency rather than Bush-like idiocy.
Obama seeming warm here, mentioning watching the Redskins, mentions that all Dems would be a change from Bush. He's very strong on this kind of pitch. Just don't ask him about Pakistan. Jeez!
Gibson tosses a softball at Richardson on executive experience that allows him to pull out the resume.
Hard question for Edwards on his Senate record. Good response from John about his advocacy around the Patient's Bill of Rights.
Good fiery stuff from Edwards about scummy lobbyists in Washington.
Obama chips in with Edwards. They're looking more and more like a ticket.
Good question from Gibson - how is it change if you can still buy meals for lobbyists if they're standing up.
Hillary on the attack about Obama's chair in NH being a lobbyists, says Edwards bill never passed the House. She's going for it!
"Words are not action" - that's Hillary's best line of the night. It goes to the heart of Obama as an empty suit.
Pure chaos here after Gibson says that Washington is set up to resist change. Clinton cuts through it by going back to the Clinton White House. I'm not sure it helps her to do the nostalgia trip.
Edwards harking back to Teddy Roosevelt. Yikes. "Walk tall and carry and big stick," John?
Obama going to the inspiration well. Is there anything behind his words, though?
Richardson goes with the "Washington bickering" line. Give it up, Bill. He wants to resolve problems by bringing people together. He's giving Edwards a chance here. Get in there, John.
Boring question on the carbon tax.
zzzzzzzzzz
It's been a long night, folks. Let's wrap it up!
In the end, I don't think this debate changed anything. What I'm reading on a number of blogs tonight is that Barack is cool and good looking, so he seems teed up for another win on Tuesday night regardless of what he says. Clinton has been desperate, angry and I'd be shocked if she pulls it off on Tuesday night. She may be finished. Edwards is done. Richardson - I forgot he was on stage most of the night.
As for the Repubs, McCain did well tonight. However, given that loads of Indies will sign up to vote Dem in order to back the guy they're starting to call the "BaRockstar," he may be hurt and it may tip to Romney. Romney sucked tonight but it may not make a difference.
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